Outshined by other military idea groups. Horde. A must pick for hordes as you will be going ultra blobbing mode and +25% cav combat ability is great as your non-siege armies will be 100% cav if you’re a tengri horde. Other military idea groups don’t compare as you need all your idea groups to accommodate your ultra blobbing playstyle.So I always go the same with my army. Fullfill the combat width with infantry and 15-25% cavalery. Before tech 13 you only need one artillery (for the siege bonus) otherwise it will be a waste of money, they ain't that powerful before this time. After, you can remove your cavalery and put more artillery in your army composition.There is no 'ideal' composition. There are good ones. Start with a general, always make sure you have a general. Make your army big. Bigger armies are less likely to be engaged and less likely to lose. Start with infantry. Up to full combat width or force limit, whichever comes first. When cannons come along get at least 5, 6 is better and 10 ...If you can't afford or don't have the manpower for an army of that size, then stick to an amount of cannons, at least that many infantry plus more to replace losses (infantry always take the most casualties) and 2-4 cavalry to flank. So say your combat width is fifteen, your ideal army has 15 artillery, 22-23 infantry and 4 cavalry.I've always wondered which composition of my army would be optimal. Most of the time I used 2:1:1 or 3:1:2, but have never been really certain if this was optimal. You surely know the wiki-charts showing how unit-pips increase for each tech-group and that there are several steps shifting the effectiveness of units from infantry to cavalry and back.Army composition = (A = W) + 4C + (Ax2 or Ax3)I, where A (rtillery), W (idth of combat), C (avalry) and I (fantry). Basically I use double or triple my artillery in infantry. Using a "spare" army to follow your arty is smart, because it allows you to replenish your morale mid-fight, which is sweet.What would be the most efficient and powerful composition of inf/cav/art. Also how does artillery affect siege? ... Go to eu4 r/eu4 • by lescribanot90. Ideal Army Compositions? What would be the most efficient and powerful composition of inf/cav/art. Also how does artillery affect siege? I understand that having just 1 artillery unit gives a ...There is no 'ideal' composition. There are good ones. Start with a general, always make sure you have a general. Make your army big. Bigger armies are less likely to be engaged and less likely to lose. Start with infantry. Up to full combat width or force limit, whichever comes first. When cannons come along get at least 5, 6 is better and 10 ...That's the beauty of EU4 - you can ignore some penalties if your bonuses are bigger. ... For me at all times my army composition is a full row of infantry and when I get the tech at least 10 cannons, with one exception, when I'm playing as a horde. This decision is based purely on economics. Until about 1650 my army is my main source of income ... About. This decision is always available and gives information on the best army composition based on your current military technology. Game Version - 1.30.*. Single Player - YES. Multiplayer - YES. Ironman - NO. When it comes to composite decking, Menard's is one of the biggest and most trusted names in the business. That's why we decided to take a closer look at Expert Advice On Improving...Ideally you want cannons on the back row and infantry/cav (Composition depending on the nation you are playing) on the front row. Front fills in first and artillery isn't that useful until later techs. With Brandenburg I would recommend 2-4 cav depending on your income, 22 infantry and only 3 cannons for sieges as at tech 7 it is not worth the ...At 40 combat width, undisputed optimal army composition is 32-8-40. This is making some assumptions about having a reinforcement stack nearby if you happen to engage an equal size stack. Less than 40 combat width, which means lower miltech and therefore lower supply limits is more disputed.Manchu cavy/arty-only army composition idea. Hello guys, so i currently have a good Manchu campaign going and yesterday stumbled across Siu King's YT video in which he stackwipes anybody as Sunni QQ having 60% cavalry combat ability, 85% cavalry to infantry ratio and 6/6/6/6 Generals while his armies consist only of cavalry and artillery.The best army composition is 150% of your width as infantry, 100% of your combat width as artillery and up to 4 cavalry. ... So say your combat width is fifteen, your ideal army has 15 artillery, 22-23 infantry and 4 cavalry. Around 40k troops overall. ... ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox ...This basically means that you should have for instance stacks of 10/4/8 (inf/cav/art) The rule I stick with is 4 cav always. And then 50/50 infantry and artillery, with a bit more infantry for reinforcements. So a smaller stack would be 6/4/4. A bigger stack would be 16/4/12. 3.So another option is to just have a stack of only banners and call it your elite army, drill them and rename them to something cool. Never use this army for sieges, only for important battles. Hordes pros and cons, what are their strengths and how utilise them: Hordes are good at two things which make them so good.A single regiment of a single unit type is a layer of abstraction in EU4, necessary to represent warfare. You having a "1000" of infantry, or "1000" of artillery, doesn't, by any means, mean that this would be an actual army of 1k infantrymen and 1k cannons irl.Armies can be combined for better flanking as needed. In some settings, I'll drop the cavalry altogether. Once artillery exist I'll add up to 4, budget permitting, to help with sieges. So something like 18/2/4. By tech 16, I'll ditch all the cavalry. Army composition is X Infantry and X+4 Artillery, such as 22/0/18.Go to eu4 r/eu4 • by Enough_Fudge_2574. Army composition . It’s about 1508 and I’m a massive Venice. I have built to force limit, full drill, and first level army professionalism. My main armies (not the stacks of pure infantry that serves to resupply the front line) are mainly around 12-20 infantry with 3 Calvary and a full back line of ...Early game (around tech 7 when you get artillery): 10-5-5. Mid game: 10-4-6. Late game: 10-2-10 (or my personal preference with a stack of 22: 12-2-10) So if you were able to afford having two armies of these ratios or have an one army that was doubled it would look like the following.... Early game.Go to eu4 r/eu4 • by ... Army composition is extremely important. If you have too many cannons and not enough infantry, your cannons will be slaughtered. On the other hand, if you don't have enough cannons, your enemy will outgun you. ... Ideal (late game) will be combat width number of infantry and cannons, and 4 cavalry.As a Tengri Horde, you want to stick with no-Syncretic Tengri for 100% Cavalry ratio and dirt cheap 5 ducat cavalry after stacking it with loyal/influential Tribes estate, Horde idea, and Oirat NI/Trading in Livestock.From miltech 13-14 onwards however, you will want, at the very least, more cannons than your opponent. The (summed) +2 and +3 cannon fire damage modifiers are the big ones to watch out for here. Assuming you can afford it, having your front-line equal to your cannon line plus 50% (e.g. 14/4/12 or 12/6/12) is a good guideline to follow. As ...Also, the "ideal" army has full combat-width cannons as soon as they are invented. Sure, they do crap damage until around mil16, but any damage is more than 0 when we're talking about the ideal composition. Also, artillery don't "outdamage" infantry until mil25 from the backrow, but that obviously shouldn't stop you from having a full backrow ...But no matter the country, that composition of 16/4/5 is not optimal, you have far too many infantry and too little artillery. In a previous comment on this thread you say that you're in the late game. So the composition you would want is 20/0/20 or 22/0/20 ideally.Army composition and Combat Width. I’ve played eu4 since 2016 but I’ve never cared to understand this. I get the general idea, combat width means how many regiments can be on the front line, but I’m slightly confused. My combat width is 27, so I can have 27 inf/cav and 27 artillery. But I’m playing as the Netherlands and have a 23 force ...Normally it's 4 cav and rest of the combat width infantry. After tech 7 add at least 1 cannon. After tech 16 add full back row of cannons (if you're county it's poor and can't afford this many connona, do it until tech 22). I also like to make a 10/0/10 stack for early game sieges. The global consensus currently is:The help thread has a list of resources, including one on army composition based on tech level. Reply. JackNotOLantern. •. Levels 1-15: 4 cav and rest of combat width infantry. At Level 7 add 1-10 cannons for siege. Level 16+: add full combat width of cannons. You may do a siege stack 10/0/10 for fast sieges before Level 16.See full list on neuralgamer.com My brother and I made a piano arrangement of the main theme. It struck us both that after several years since release, there had never been made any transcription of the fantastic opening theme, The voyage. So we decided to make one ourselves, for piano, as this is the instrument we both play. This has been a long project (as arranging an ...However, if you want to optimize for combat strength, optimal army composition is always, i.e. from the start of the game, a full back row of artillery, as much cavalry as your ratio can afford and the rest infantry, obviously modified to account for any casualties. Before tech 13/16, however, such a composition is grossly cost-ineffective.Make sure to fight on flat ground. Lacking arty was more impactful than fighting on rough terrain though. It really is that important to have arty. Anyone saying that you should run 100% CAV is implying that your frontline should consist only of CAV, backline still requires arty. Little_Elia.Now, I've never played trade before and never went so late in EU4 - but I'm basically maxed out, swimming in more money and manpower than I can spend, and can do whatever I want (holy shit trade is strong). This got me wondering about cavalry, army composition and the 40 max combat width.2)+0.2 military tactics is huge, it provides a flat modifier to damage taken so you are taking 13.3% more losses from military tactics alone. 3) You have a -1 to all rolls from a terrain penalty. 4) Your leader is 2/1/2/0, Spains is 6/4/1/1 so they are a net 4/3/-1/1 better.Reducing maintenance is usually enough, but if you still have financial problems then something is wrong. I assume your army composition is too expensive, most likely too many cavalry. 2 cavalries in an army are generally enough for every nation throughout the game until you ditch them completely in the mid- to endgame, except specific ones that have significant cavalry boni like Poland or any ...It's almost as simple as Vic 2's if you're not a Horde or someone with a lot of cavalry bonuses. Here's the deal: Early game as soon as you can afford it, your army should be two Cavalry and enough Infantry to fill the Combat Width (it goes up as Tech goes up and you can find it on the Military tab) or, failing that, just bigger than the guy you are fighting.Aug 25, 2013. Jump to latest Follow Reply. I was wondering, what do you guys think is the ideal army size? Usually my armies are 20 units, 10 infantry, 5 cavalry, 5 artillery.Aug 25, 2013. Jump to latest Follow Reply. I was wondering, what do you guys think is the ideal army size? Usually my armies are 20 units, 10 infantry, 5 cavalry, 5 artillery.The best army composition is infantry equal to combat width plus artillery equal to combat width. Cavarly don't actually do much more damage in most cases at most tech levels, so scrap them unless you're Poland or a horde. You can skip out on the artillery until mil tech 16 or so.A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox Development Studio.r/eu4. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox Development Studio. MembersOnline. 350K subscribers in the eu4 community. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by….I'd describe my EU experience level the same way you do yours, so/but grain of salt: I find I'm not good enough to enjoy the endless 1.5 nations vs 3 nations wars that my playstyle apparently causes on very hard. It's the arbitrary difficulty opinion malus that seems to result in the ai focusing to lock me out diplomatically from expanding, as soon as it can.PDX player since the first Europa Universalis. [MOD] Basileía Romaíon Trust In Johan. Reply. Report. W. Wethospu Captain. 47 Badges. May 29, 2019 360 259. Jan 18, 2020; ... I don't think Liburnians are the optimal composition for warfare. But they are optimal for a single battle what is considered in the original post. Reply. Report. D. Denkt ...Aristocratic, Aristocratic-Econ, Trading in Livestock/Iron, and no-Syncretic Tengri, will cut down the cost from 10/25/30 to 7.5/11.25/22.5, or 12.5% more cost on 0/1/1 vs 1/0/1. Even without Econ, the cost would only be 21% higher, while your damage increase and manpower saved will far outweights the 21% cost. Then there are your filthy banners.If memory serves right, in 1650 your combat width should be around 32. So a good army composition might be 32 front row infantry + 8 spare units = 40 infantry and 21 artillery to get the maximum siege bonus on a star fort capital (level 6 + 1). You can go all the way up to 32 artillery, if you can afford that.The best army composition is infantry equal to combat width plus artillery equal to combat width. Cavarly don't actually do much more damage in most cases at most tech levels, so scrap them unless you're Poland or a horde. You can skip out on the artillery until mil tech 16 or so.Been playing EU4 off and on for a number of years now, and for a while I've been running an army composition of having 4 cavalry for every stack I have (assuming I can afford them, ofc). I picked this up several years ago, don't remember from where/who, but I'm now questioning whether this is still effective.This one works for me: Current unit composition is 10 Infantry; 5 Cavalry; 5 Cannons. Artillery actually slows your armies down, so it's best to only use it in certain armies, primarily for the purpose of besieging forts. Have armies of Infantry+Cavalry, and a few of Infantry+Artillery as well.Army composition? I have been playing for a little while now but recently i did a cusco run and got my balls twisted by the rebels and im wondering if it’s because of my army template? I usually have 10/5/0 in the beginning of runs until i unlock artillary and i switch to 15/5/10 and the first idea tree i go for is usually offensive.The help thread has a list of resources, including one on army composition based on tech level. Reply. JackNotOLantern. •. Levels 1-15: 4 cav and rest of combat width infantry. At Level 7 add 1-10 cannons for siege. Level 16+: add full combat width of cannons. You may do a siege stack 10/0/10 for fast sieges before Level 16.If you ever go for Aristocratic first idea in the first war against Ming if you're not confident or have scored trading in livestock via deving the shit out of your stated provinces or conquest, cavalry becomes better. And the higher your shock pip vs the enemy, the bigger advantage you'd get from cavalry.Army composition. Discussion. What do you make your armies out of and how do they work, I'm trying to improve the casualty ratio in my battles? I currently use half infantry and half cannons, it tends to win battles but I take a lot of casualties. 1.There's an "ideal" army composition spreadsheet linked on the Imperial Council post on the front page, but its only goal is to be as strong in battle as possible. You'll want to also be cost-efficient and good at sieging at the same time, plus considering your country's strengths in combat ability, unit types, special regiments, terrain and ...After tech 16, the nearly-optimal army composition is ~30/0/24. Keep in mind this is a crude estimate, though it'll certainly blow away (pun intended) your enemies, for more information, refer to Reman's guide on army composition, it's highly detailed and will teach you to choose your own army composition, adapted to your campaign.A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox Development Studio. Members Online • akaioi . Army Composition in mid-late game Discussion I have been following this advice: "Infantry to combat width, a few extra ...Jul 18, 2018 · Ideal Army Composition. 123456798. Jul 18, 2018. Jump to latest Follow Reply. Im currently playing as Russia and Im wondering how I should organize my massive military. I know of the spreadsheet except it recommends over 60 regiments... Animals and Pets Anime Art Cars and Motor Vehicles Crafts and DIY Culture, Race, and Ethnicity Ethics and Philosophy Fashion Food and Drink History Hobbies Law Learning and Education Military Movies Music Place Podcasts and Streamers Politics Programming Reading, Writing, and Literature Religion and Spirituality Science Tabletop Games ...Your army performs best when you reach the combat width, so an ideal army is one where the infantry and artillery both reach the combat width However, reinforcements waiting to be deployed take penalties to morale whilst the front line fights so don't overstack armies: instead, have support armies of infantry nearby a main combat army to ...5. sacrich_cc. • 4 yr. ago. As everything with EU it’s pretty complicated, here’s a doc telling you the optimal comp for every tech. 3. BaronWalrus1. • 4 yr. ago. Build a combat width stack with 2 or 4 cavalry depending on your economy give it 3 artillery as well so you can barrage capital forts. The rest of your FL can be saved for ...When it comes to composite decking, Menard's is one of the biggest and most trusted names in the business. That's why we decided to take a closer look at Expert Advice On Improving...Active-Cow-8259. • 1 yr. ago. 1.35 doesnt really Change Combat as far as I know. If you dont know much about composition Here is the most important stuff. You should allways try to fill the combat with (cw) in the front row (infrantry + cavalery). The backrow is only used by the artillery, so artillery allways adds extra damage, however ...Remember that the "optimal composition" works on the assumption that money is not an issue. If you're at a point where you can't field an army 1.5 *CW of infantry and 1.0* CW of arty (which will be a significant portion of the game, especially if you're not blob crazy), the relative value of infantry and arty can change drastically.What army composition is best depends entirely on the situation. Lategame is characterized by very long exhausting battles. While in early game armies are out of morale very quick and retreat without many losses, in late game they may fight until the last man. And regiments deal damage based on their size.Your army performs best when you reach the combat width, so an ideal army is one where the infantry and artillery both reach the combat width However, reinforcements waiting to be deployed take penalties to morale whilst the front line fights so don't overstack armies: instead, have support armies of infantry nearby a main combat army to ...5. sacrich_cc. • 4 yr. ago. As everything with EU it’s pretty complicated, here’s a doc telling you the optimal comp for every tech. 3. BaronWalrus1. • 4 yr. ago. Build a combat width stack with 2 or 4 cavalry depending on your economy give it 3 artillery as well so you can barrage capital forts. The rest of your FL can be saved for ...Just Google 'eu4 1.33 combat changes' and you'll see a big reddit post about it. Sorry not sure how to share it rn on my phone. Basically the other pips got more relevant, not just moral. Artillery is safer in battle but does retreat too from what I understand so you sometimes have to reinforce with them and not just infantry.The question is, which should be the first 2 Military Ideas that Austria chooses? I ended an Austria game with Quantity (first), Defensive (second), Aristocratic (third), and Quality (fourth). I had absolutely amazing generals with the -1% army tradition decay from Aristocratic idea, the +2% army tradition from Defensive and Quality, and the ...Less short answer: To optimize your army composition get as many infantry and cavalry to fill your front line first, around 4 cav is fine, this number increases with greater flanking range. Get lots of cannons starting from tech 16, at the very least 1/3 of your army, closer to 1/2 your army.Almost always I keep a 3-1-2 composition until mod-game, when I switch to a 5-2-3 composition, then in late-game to a 5-1-3 with bigger overall stacks. Originally posted by Psychotic Fury: Originally posted by ChaosTLW: Max is 90, actually, but eh.A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox Development Studio. Members Online 1664 Ottomans: 100 Decadence, Crap ton of rebels, powerful allies, disloyal states.Go to eu4 r/eu4 • by ... Question about army composition . I had the game for some time but i just recently started playing it as the ottomans (i know lot of people hate on the ottomans but i heard it's a good starting country) My military tech is level 5 and my combat width is 25. ... I think it was reman who said 4 cav is ideal, cause then ...Go to eu4 r/eu4 • by [deleted] Army composition question . Hello, I have a small question about the army composition I'm using. I'm playing some game as Qing and currently my combat width is 30, so does that mean I should be using 25 Infantry, 5 Cavalry and 30 Artillery to fill my back row? Or should I use less Artillery and use more infantry ...Your army performs best when you reach the combat width, so an ideal army is one where the infantry and artillery both reach the combat width However, reinforcements waiting to be deployed take penalties to morale whilst the front line fights so don't overstack armies: instead, have support armies of infantry nearby a main combat army to ...As far as I understand battles are treated the same whether it is 1 stack v 1 stack or 1v2 stacks. Generally I prefer to use two stacks in these cases. Your stacks should usually be slightly larger than combat width with backup infantry so that you can stay the max frontline combat width for longer. Also, having separate stacks helps with ...What army composition is best depends entirely on the situation. Lategame is characterized by very long exhausting battles. While in early game armies are out of morale very quick and retreat without many losses, in late game they may fight until the last man. And regiments deal damage based on their size.999 votes, 65 comments. 324K subscribers in the eu4 community. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game…As prussia you shouldn't have trouble with numbers as your discipline and french-like morale should also help out alongside combat ability, late game army comps should usually have 1 arty per infantry because arty attacks from the back line dealing decent damage while taking no damage so long as infantry in the front soak it up, in other words try to keep an equal amount of arty-infantry or ...Infantry+cavalry = combat width x 1.5 Artillery = combat width. Your infantry:cavalry ratio might vary by nation, but basically I use Cavalry = Mil Tech / 2. Such that at 16 tech I have 8 cavalry in an attack. And the rest infantry. The new reinforcement rules, change some support tactics, but I just break an army into 3 parts for manuevers to ...Edit: So from what I read the ideal composition should be 16 inf, 4 cav, 20 arty. 4 cavalry because more is useless, infantry to fill the numbers and 20 artillery because you have to have the same number of arty and frontline units for balanced damage and morale. Archived post. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. 5. 24 Share.Europa Universalis IV 81904 EUIV: Bug Reports 454 EUIV: Suggestions ... Army composition: I tend to go with stacks of 12/8/0 around 1450, and 10/8/10 in the 1600s. ... Around 1600 would be tech 16ish with a combat width of 30 so the ideal army would be something like 22-8-30 (I'd say more like 28-2-30 for anybody else, but Poland have good cav ...324K subscribers in the eu4 community. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by…My understanding from what I remember is that your cavalry/infantry ratio effectively lets you have a certain number of cavalry attacking compared to your combat width, so if you have 12 combat width and 25% C:I ratio, you can have 4 cavalry dealing flanking damage.Part 3 of a 4 part series on basics of combat and combat related mechanics. In this part, we discuss ideal army composition and why use of cavalry should be ...
Starting from miliary, we have great army, but still not the best in the world. 2 admin points is just because our economy became stronger in comparsion with USSR, but corruption is everywhere and average salary in Russia right now is about 500$/month. But the thing is that minimum salary is 150$. ... r/eu4 • Ideal army composition in 2023?. 7zip official download
Aristocratic, Aristocratic-Econ, Trading in Livestock/Iron, and no-Syncretic Tengri, will cut down the cost from 10/25/30 to 7.5/11.25/22.5, or 12.5% more cost on 0/1/1 vs 1/0/1. Even without Econ, the cost would only be 21% higher, while your damage increase and manpower saved will far outweights the 21% cost. Then there are your filthy banners.Use numbers like 24, when you split your army its 5-2-5 which is some nice small regiments. When a huge battle is going combining them would make 20-8-20 which most of the time would be accurate as combat width.Posted by u/Iconopony - 1 vote and 1 commentConcrete is thinner, stronger and more durable than mortar; whereas mortar is used as a bonding agent between building materials, concrete is used for structural projects, such as ...In sports, body composition refers to the overall weight and size of an athlete and the proportion of that weight made up of muscle, fat or bone. Body composition is important in n...Each type of unit has a specific amount they can loot from a province each monthly tick (I can't recall the numbers offhand, sorry). From the fastest to slowest looting speeds it goes cavalry>infantry>cannons. So if you have a cav heavy army you're going to chew up the loot bar faster than if you had a cannon heavy army.You get a unique Cossack Republic government type called "Sich Rada" which prioritizes cavalry. You basically start the game with +40% cavalry combat ability and you can stack even more in fairly short order. Here are some sources of cavalry combat ability: +20% Sich Rada government reform. +20% Cossacks estate. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox Development Studio. Members Online 1664 Ottomans: 100 Decadence, Crap ton of rebels, powerful allies, disloyal states. Ideal army composition for every tech Mil tech Combat width Infantry Cavalry Cannons Total Comments 0 15 17 4 0 21 For the reasoning behind this, see Zwirbaum's great unit guide. 2 20 22 4 0 26 Or this video by darkfireslide 5 22 24 4 0 28 If you find yourself to be a horde you may want to ignore all this and go full cavalry; I'm not sure if ... Sep 9, 2023 · Army composition for every single country, with maybe like 3-5 exceptions, in the game is extremely simple: 1. Use your initial cav only till the first battle. Merge until you end up with 0. Never recruit more cavalry. 2. Always try to move with stacks of infantry equal to combat width. If combat width is 20, have a stack of 20 infantry. Since EU3 I've always been bad at figuring out exactly what sort of army compositions I should use. I started visiting this forum after I got EU4 and I've seen several helpful posts and discussions on this sub-reddit explaining optimal army composition and formations. If I've understood the mechanics correctly, the ideal is:There's an "ideal" army composition spreadsheet linked on the Imperial Council post on the front page, but its only goal is to be as strong in battle as possible. You'll want to also be cost-efficient and good at sieging at the same time, plus considering your country's strengths in combat ability, unit types, special regiments, terrain and ...Your army performs best when you reach the combat width, so an ideal army is one where the infantry and artillery both reach the combat width However, reinforcements waiting to be deployed take penalties to morale whilst the front line fights so don't overstack armies: instead, have support armies of infantry nearby a main combat army to ...I have a question about army composition, specifically on Combat Width. Currently, my understanding is that I should always have an amount of infantry+ cavalry (in my case, I rarely have more than 4 cav) as high as the combat width, to make sure artillery lines are always 'covered'. So with a 24 width my composition would be 20+4, etc..
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